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	<title>Comments on: The Irish &#8211; more Spanish than Celtic?</title>
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		<title>By: Robonidas</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-54650</link>
		<dc:creator>Robonidas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2012 20:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-54650</guid>
		<description>From what I understand, the people of neolithic atlantic europe all derive from a common ancestry - the first humans who moved north and settled there after the retreat of the glaciers.  The basques may be the only surviving remnant of this pre-indo-european substratum, though it used to be much wider.  I&#039;ve read that the Ligurians and Etruscans may have been a part of this pre-indo-european ethnic family.  Also, from what I understand, this ethnic family was relatively peaceful and matriarchal/matrilineal; there is evidence for this in the Picts of scotland, who were probably one of the last indigenous european groups to adopt indo-european language and culture.

What probably happened was this: for some unknown reason, the proto indo-europeans in russia (or turkey, depending on which origin theory you like better) made the switch from a matriarchal to patriarchal society and gradually became more aggressive and warlike.  over thousands of years, small groups of indo-european warriors (as in dozens or hundreds) left their tribes to conquer their peaceful neighbors, and set themselves up as a warrior aristocracy.  Because of their superior technology (horses and chariots) and the indigenous europeans&#039; peaceful cultures, they were probably able to do this relatively easily (not unlike the Conquistadors in early modern times) They didn&#039;t leave much trace in terms of DNA because there were so few of them.  

Once they had subjugated an indigenous tribe, they intermarried with them and over time, the whole tribe adopted their masters&#039; language and customs.  Over thousands of years, this phenomenon snowballed, though it probably wasn&#039;t the main vehicle for indo-european expansion.  The indo-europeans likely had a higher material standard of life than the natives, thanks to their propensity for raiding and for enslaving or patronizing skilled artisans.  after centuries of skirmishing and trade, some of the leaders of the indigenous tribes probably thought the indo-europeans had the right idea, and began adopting their language and culture voluntarily - eventually, this trickled down to the commoners as well.  this process kept spreading westwards until nearly all of europe considered itself indo-european; of course over time, these assimilated tribes gradually formed subgroups that took on their own identities (Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Slavic, etc...)

The irish seem to be one of these indigenous groups that at some point adopted Celtic culture, and may very well have originated in Spain.  There is an Irish legend concerning Míl Espáine (king Milesius), who spied the coast of ireland from his watchtower in Galicia and led the first Gaels to settle there.   This legend may be a Celticized version of an earlier indigenous one describing how the aboriginal irish settled the island - if that&#039;s the case, it might explain the genetic similarities between the irish and atlantic iberians.  

One more interesting note - celtic languages are divided into two types: p-celtic and q-celtic.  P-celtic languages include Gaulish and the Britonnic dialects, while q-celtic languages include Goidelic (Gaelic) and Celtiberian - the language of the spanish celts.  Again, more evidence for a common ancestry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I understand, the people of neolithic atlantic europe all derive from a common ancestry &#8211; the first humans who moved north and settled there after the retreat of the glaciers.  The basques may be the only surviving remnant of this pre-indo-european substratum, though it used to be much wider.  I&#8217;ve read that the Ligurians and Etruscans may have been a part of this pre-indo-european ethnic family.  Also, from what I understand, this ethnic family was relatively peaceful and matriarchal/matrilineal; there is evidence for this in the Picts of scotland, who were probably one of the last indigenous european groups to adopt indo-european language and culture.</p>
<p>What probably happened was this: for some unknown reason, the proto indo-europeans in russia (or turkey, depending on which origin theory you like better) made the switch from a matriarchal to patriarchal society and gradually became more aggressive and warlike.  over thousands of years, small groups of indo-european warriors (as in dozens or hundreds) left their tribes to conquer their peaceful neighbors, and set themselves up as a warrior aristocracy.  Because of their superior technology (horses and chariots) and the indigenous europeans&#8217; peaceful cultures, they were probably able to do this relatively easily (not unlike the Conquistadors in early modern times) They didn&#8217;t leave much trace in terms of DNA because there were so few of them.  </p>
<p>Once they had subjugated an indigenous tribe, they intermarried with them and over time, the whole tribe adopted their masters&#8217; language and customs.  Over thousands of years, this phenomenon snowballed, though it probably wasn&#8217;t the main vehicle for indo-european expansion.  The indo-europeans likely had a higher material standard of life than the natives, thanks to their propensity for raiding and for enslaving or patronizing skilled artisans.  after centuries of skirmishing and trade, some of the leaders of the indigenous tribes probably thought the indo-europeans had the right idea, and began adopting their language and culture voluntarily &#8211; eventually, this trickled down to the commoners as well.  this process kept spreading westwards until nearly all of europe considered itself indo-european; of course over time, these assimilated tribes gradually formed subgroups that took on their own identities (Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Slavic, etc&#8230;)</p>
<p>The irish seem to be one of these indigenous groups that at some point adopted Celtic culture, and may very well have originated in Spain.  There is an Irish legend concerning Míl Espáine (king Milesius), who spied the coast of ireland from his watchtower in Galicia and led the first Gaels to settle there.   This legend may be a Celticized version of an earlier indigenous one describing how the aboriginal irish settled the island &#8211; if that&#8217;s the case, it might explain the genetic similarities between the irish and atlantic iberians.  </p>
<p>One more interesting note &#8211; celtic languages are divided into two types: p-celtic and q-celtic.  P-celtic languages include Gaulish and the Britonnic dialects, while q-celtic languages include Goidelic (Gaelic) and Celtiberian &#8211; the language of the spanish celts.  Again, more evidence for a common ancestry.</p>
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		<title>By: Foreigners in Ireland - Page 37</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-54203</link>
		<dc:creator>Foreigners in Ireland - Page 37</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-54203</guid>
		<description>[...] hordes being washed up on our shores....have a look what was washed up here about 2500 years ago: The Irish &#8211; more Spanish than Celtic?                   Reply With [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] hordes being washed up on our shores&#8230;.have a look what was washed up here about 2500 years ago: The Irish &#8211; more Spanish than Celtic?                   Reply With [...]</p>
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		<title>By: 30% of class time in primary schools on religion and Irish - can this be justified? - Page 36</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-54037</link>
		<dc:creator>30% of class time in primary schools on religion and Irish - can this be justified? - Page 36</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 15:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-54037</guid>
		<description>[...] with the Celts or the Irish.  Like I said, it&#039;s a blow-in.   And the Celts have little to do with the Irish  The Celts left a limited genetic imprint on the &#039;&#039;Irish&#039;&#039; genome, to claim otherwise is in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with the Celts or the Irish.  Like I said, it&#039;s a blow-in.   And the Celts have little to do with the Irish  The Celts left a limited genetic imprint on the &#039;&#039;Irish&#039;&#039; genome, to claim otherwise is in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gabi</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-53387</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 13:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-53387</guid>
		<description>@ Steve Nowe- everybody knows that saint Brendan &quot;discovered&quot; the Americas long before that. 
Most every culture around the world will have a hodge-podge of DNA from all over. The reason for this- a lot of people are attracted to someone who is foreign, exotic and different from themselves.
the old beast with two backs is truly a universal animal 
(nudge, wink)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Steve Nowe- everybody knows that saint Brendan &#8220;discovered&#8221; the Americas long before that.<br />
Most every culture around the world will have a hodge-podge of DNA from all over. The reason for this- a lot of people are attracted to someone who is foreign, exotic and different from themselves.<br />
the old beast with two backs is truly a universal animal<br />
(nudge, wink)</p>
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		<title>By: Kathleen Moohan</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-52345</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathleen Moohan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2012 01:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-52345</guid>
		<description>yes definatley makes sense to me &amp; helps explain for me to understand my ancestry roots helps clear confusion&amp; open other option leading to a clearer understanding &amp; or lessons the confusion due to further confirming  this theory Thankyou! interesting</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes definatley makes sense to me &amp; helps explain for me to understand my ancestry roots helps clear confusion&amp; open other option leading to a clearer understanding &amp; or lessons the confusion due to further confirming  this theory Thankyou! interesting</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-52273</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-52273</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d say that the Irish are Celtic in light of practicing a Celtic culture. The indigenous Irish may have stronger genetic ties to the Basques and other peoples of the Iberian peninsula than to the Indo-European from the Caucasus mountains, but these days there are plenty of Irish citizens with roots from elsewhere - Poland, Nigeria, China, etc. - who share in the Celtic culture of their country as well.

Also, one element that were are forgetting is the extent to which the culture and traditions of pre-Celtic Ireland blended with the ways of the incoming Celts. The Celtic identity adopted by the Irish probably absorbed a good amount of the autochthonous culture, which would explain in part the nuances that differentiate the &quot;Gaelic&quot; or &quot;Goidelic&quot; Celtic culture and language of Ireland from the separate Celtic cultures and languages of ancient Britain and mainland Europe. Sure, some of the difference can be explained by drift and isolation over time, but there are probably many subtle elements, undecipherable to us today, that remain in Irish culture from the pre-Celtic customs, whatever they looked like.

Similarly, we should remember that the &quot;Celtic&quot; peoples of continental Europe, too, at some point adopted Celtic languages in place of older tongues. Ethnic Celts didn&#039;t replace the previous inhabitants of Gaul anymore than ethnic Romans and Franks replaced the Gauls themselves... Just as the Gauls started calling themselves French and speaking the Vulgar Latin dialects that evolved in Romance languages, their ancestors probably picked up Gaulish from their neighbors at some point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say that the Irish are Celtic in light of practicing a Celtic culture. The indigenous Irish may have stronger genetic ties to the Basques and other peoples of the Iberian peninsula than to the Indo-European from the Caucasus mountains, but these days there are plenty of Irish citizens with roots from elsewhere &#8211; Poland, Nigeria, China, etc. &#8211; who share in the Celtic culture of their country as well.</p>
<p>Also, one element that were are forgetting is the extent to which the culture and traditions of pre-Celtic Ireland blended with the ways of the incoming Celts. The Celtic identity adopted by the Irish probably absorbed a good amount of the autochthonous culture, which would explain in part the nuances that differentiate the &#8220;Gaelic&#8221; or &#8220;Goidelic&#8221; Celtic culture and language of Ireland from the separate Celtic cultures and languages of ancient Britain and mainland Europe. Sure, some of the difference can be explained by drift and isolation over time, but there are probably many subtle elements, undecipherable to us today, that remain in Irish culture from the pre-Celtic customs, whatever they looked like.</p>
<p>Similarly, we should remember that the &#8220;Celtic&#8221; peoples of continental Europe, too, at some point adopted Celtic languages in place of older tongues. Ethnic Celts didn&#8217;t replace the previous inhabitants of Gaul anymore than ethnic Romans and Franks replaced the Gauls themselves&#8230; Just as the Gauls started calling themselves French and speaking the Vulgar Latin dialects that evolved in Romance languages, their ancestors probably picked up Gaulish from their neighbors at some point.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Mannion</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-49403</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Mannion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-49403</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it extraordinary that so many people (including journalists), when discussing events believed to have taken place just after the last ice age, seem naively to imagine that countries like Spain, Portugal, the Basque Country and so on existed in those days, and that there was, for example, a &quot;Spanish&quot; identity?  These various countries of Europe, with their identities, were thousands of years in the future!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it extraordinary that so many people (including journalists), when discussing events believed to have taken place just after the last ice age, seem naively to imagine that countries like Spain, Portugal, the Basque Country and so on existed in those days, and that there was, for example, a &#8220;Spanish&#8221; identity?  These various countries of Europe, with their identities, were thousands of years in the future!</p>
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		<title>By: Wegnos</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-48619</link>
		<dc:creator>Wegnos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-48619</guid>
		<description>In terms of the difference of Basque and Celtic languages my theory is aligned to the idea that Basque women married Celtic speaking  men, had children to them and then left that region with them after the thaw. Some of these perhaps stayed behind and were absorbed into the Basque culture but others joined the migration into further parts of Europe and the west. The migrants maintained their Celtic language and those left behind maintained their Basque language. This could explain the strong similarity between what are seen as &quot;Celtic&quot; dna groups and Basque ones depsite the massive differences linguistically</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of the difference of Basque and Celtic languages my theory is aligned to the idea that Basque women married Celtic speaking  men, had children to them and then left that region with them after the thaw. Some of these perhaps stayed behind and were absorbed into the Basque culture but others joined the migration into further parts of Europe and the west. The migrants maintained their Celtic language and those left behind maintained their Basque language. This could explain the strong similarity between what are seen as &#8220;Celtic&#8221; dna groups and Basque ones depsite the massive differences linguistically</p>
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		<title>By: Wegnos</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-48618</link>
		<dc:creator>Wegnos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 16:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The problem Quahog King, I feel, lies in the over-use of the term Celtic and modern peoples&#039; perception of the term since schools totally ignore anything before the Romans in Britain. I believe the answer lies in the mistaken belief of Celtic origins. By Celtic I mean the actual Celtae of Caesar. Celts did not originate in central Europe - I think that horse has been ridden out of town now, it is looking very likely as you say, that they and all the other various groups called Celtic today, originated in or near the Basque region and later spread from there to dominate the Atlantic and western Europe, finally spreading into central Europe where the historically attested Celtae developed a rather more distinctive cultural signature derived from the trade routes which they dominated. (Hence why no substantial archeaological trace of them in the UK or Ireland can be found). Whne you look at all the disciplines - linguistics, archeaology, topography, religion and any other relevant studies, it becomes overwhelmingly apparent and obvious that the Celts and the Irish and British populations share a common origin. It just isnt in Central Europe!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem Quahog King, I feel, lies in the over-use of the term Celtic and modern peoples&#8217; perception of the term since schools totally ignore anything before the Romans in Britain. I believe the answer lies in the mistaken belief of Celtic origins. By Celtic I mean the actual Celtae of Caesar. Celts did not originate in central Europe &#8211; I think that horse has been ridden out of town now, it is looking very likely as you say, that they and all the other various groups called Celtic today, originated in or near the Basque region and later spread from there to dominate the Atlantic and western Europe, finally spreading into central Europe where the historically attested Celtae developed a rather more distinctive cultural signature derived from the trade routes which they dominated. (Hence why no substantial archeaological trace of them in the UK or Ireland can be found). Whne you look at all the disciplines &#8211; linguistics, archeaology, topography, religion and any other relevant studies, it becomes overwhelmingly apparent and obvious that the Celts and the Irish and British populations share a common origin. It just isnt in Central Europe!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: ALBERTO CASTELLANOS</title>
		<link>http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html/comment-page-2#comment-48401</link>
		<dc:creator>ALBERTO CASTELLANOS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 06:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://killarney-ireland.info/genealogy/dark-irish-celt-genealogy.html#comment-48401</guid>
		<description>remember: Race is different from culture; modern europe is the result of a mix of peoples and Ireland and the British Islands are no exception; the population of the green Ireland  might be celtic by culture by in reality is the amalgam of several layers of ADN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>remember: Race is different from culture; modern europe is the result of a mix of peoples and Ireland and the British Islands are no exception; the population of the green Ireland  might be celtic by culture by in reality is the amalgam of several layers of ADN.</p>
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